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The Academic Revolution
The Academic Revolution
63. Is Procrastination Hurting Your Career and How to Overcome It
Overcoming Procrastination: Insight and Solutions for Academic Physicians
In this episode of the Academic Revolution podcast, we’ll examine the issue of procrastination, prevalent in the academic medical profession.
This episode delves into the reasons why most academic physicians struggle with procrastination and provides ways to overcome it. It explores related issues such as perfectionism, setting unrealistic goals, fear of failure, and task aversion among others. Inga offers solutions such as setting clear goals and prioritizing tasks, breaking tasks into manageable steps, practicing self-discipline, and seeking accountability through colleagues and mentors. At the end, Inga shares some bonus tips to help you overcome procrastination increase productivity, and have more time.
Here is a preview. Tune in and get ready to overcome procrastination once and for all.
00:00 Introduction to Procrastination in Academic Physicians
01:18 Understanding the Roots of Procrastination
02:47 The Three Pillars of Success in Academic Career
03:57 Defining Procrastination and Its Impact
05:50 Reasons for Procrastination
22:20 The Consequences of Procrastination
24:17 Solutions to Overcome Procrastination
31:48 Bonus Tips to Combat Procrastination
33:05 Preview of the Next Episode: Making the Most Out of Conferences
Overcoming Procrastination: Insight and Solutions for Academic Physicians
In this episode of the Academic Revolution podcast, we’ll examine the issue of procrastination, prevalent in the academic medical profession.
This episode delves into the reasons why most academic physicians struggle with procrastination and provides ways to overcome it. It explores related issues such as perfectionism, setting unrealistic goals, fear of failure, and task aversion among others. Inga offers solutions such as setting clear goals and prioritizing tasks, breaking tasks into manageable steps, practicing self-discipline, and seeking accountability through colleagues and mentors. At the end, Inga shares some bonus tips to help you overcome procrastination increase productivity, and have more time.
Here is a preview. Tune in and get ready to overcome procrastination once and for all.
00:00 Introduction to Procrastination in Academic Physicians
01:18 Understanding the Roots of Procrastination
02:47 The Three Pillars of Success in Academic Career
03:57 Defining Procrastination and Its Impact
05:50 Reasons for Procrastination
22:20 The Consequences of Procras
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Have you ever experienced this feeling of dread when you're putting tasks off and maybe papers collect digital dust on your computer, or projects and reports just don't get finished because you have been putting them off, because there's so many other things going on? Well, if that's you dread, not because you're a good company. Most academic physicians struggle with procrastination in one way or another, so I thought I'm going to tackle that in this episode. Stay tuned and we will be right back. Welcome to the Academic Revolution Podcast, where we are creating a movement to change the future of academic medicine forever. I'm Inga Hoffman, a Harvard-trained pediatric hematologist, oncologist and a passionate leadership coach with over 20 years of experience in academic medicine. This is the first podcast for academic physicians that will show you how to achieve higher-product activity, become an impactful leader and create a highly successful career doing what you love, without sacrificing your personal life. You and I know that the traditional system is broken, so it's time to say no to the old, published or perished mentality and say yes to lasting change. Join me as we transform academic medicine from the inside out, one physician at a time, starting right here with the Academic Revolution Podcast. Well, welcome back to the Academic Revolution Podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, inga Hoffman, academic physician and PT Monk, and the host of this podcast, and today I would like to talk to you about procrastination, because that is such a common theme that I see in academic physicians that I've struggled with a lot in myself, but that I continue to see, whether it's in colleagues or people I get to work with or trainings I host. This is probably the number one thing that people say well, I'm struggling to complete these projects, and it is usually hidden as procrastination. So I thought let's talk about procrastination. So what I want to talk today about is give you a little bit of an overview of what procrastination is, the roots of procrastination, why we do it and how it shows up, and then tell you maybe a little bit of stories and experiences. And then, of course, we want to get in a solution mode what can we actually do about procrastination and how can we overcome it so those papers don't collect digital dust, we get the projects completed that are in our desk and that are important to us, and also how to think about eliminating some things. I will probably give you a couple bonus tips at the end, so stay tuned and we go from there.
Speaker 1:Now this lesson is pretty much straight from pillar number three, because whenever we talk about procrastination, yes, we want to really think about our leadership and what we do each day, but in many ways, it is an issue of our mind to overcome our mindset. So it's straight from pillar number three, therefore, which is mental mastery of my physician success DNA method. And hey, if you joined me more recently and you're like, what is the physician success DNA method, I encourage you to go all the way back to the early episodes, when I started this podcast one and a half years ago. You will find a more detailed explanation of what I mean by physician success DNA method. But, in short, I believe that there's three key pillars that you need to really master in order to have a successful academic career and a successful personal life, because all of it goes together, and those three pillars are performance.
Speaker 1:Habits is number one, which is basically all things related to productivity but wrapped in habits that you can do every day to have consistent progress. Pillar number two is leadership identity. Here we talk about all things related to leadership, meaning leadership skills, but for and foremost, you have to embrace a leadership identity. See that it within yourself. You are leading yourself, and when you lead yourself well, you can also lead others better. So that's pillar number two, and pillar number three is mental mastery, which we will address today. That is really everything that goes on in our heads and our thought and our mind that is often holding us back where we stand in our own way, with our mindset.
Speaker 1:So let's dive right in and how to overcome procrastination. As an academic, physician and wear shows up in our lives. Now, what is procrastination and how does it actually show up? I like this quote that I kind of created myself from a bunch of quotes that I read, because I thought that summed it up pretty well Procrastination is opportunities natural assassin and a thief of time. It's really something that actually wraps our opportunities that are right in front of us and also steals a lot of our time because we hold off on things that we're supposed to do and they don't get done.
Speaker 1:And chances are, you probably have been there. I have been there, for sure, and you know that dreaded feeling when there are projects that are hanging over your head that you know you need to complete, that are important to your career development, that are even important in your home and your personal life, maybe related to your family, until you're like I mean, I keep on putting this off, and it puts this sense of dread over you, that heaviness that makes it even harder to get started or complete something. Does that sound familiar? Or am I just the only person that's dealing with this? Probably chances are you have experienced this in one way or another. Of yet, to meet a physician in academia that hasn't experienced that? And most people in life experience that? So that tells you one thing, though hey, this is a common thing that people deal with. There must be also a way to overcome it and to handle this situation that we are facing, and that's what I want to talk about today, and I think it's important to remind ourselves where is progress donation actually coming from, what are the roots of that behavior, and then help us understand from that perspective, well, what are some solutions for this?
Speaker 1:Now let me talk about a handful of reasons for progress donation. This is not an exhaustive list. Maybe there's other things that you can come up with, but these are a number of things that I have observed. The first one is progress donation often occurs when we are completely overwhelmed with a workload. There is just so much to do that we don't even know where to start, and that happens a lot, especially for us physicians, that there are a lot of things on our plate and that sometimes it's very hard to understand where am I even starting? What is most important? And there's your clue right there. It is often a prioritization issue that people have a hard time distilling down what is taking priority right now and when we don't have priorities I talked about that in past lessons we do also not have priorities in our work and therefore we would get overwhelmed and therefore we procrastinate and don't get things done that need to get done. Another reason the second reason is often there are distractions and interruptions, and that happens frequently in our line of work. Right, we are pulled in many different directions with clinical work, with research responsibilities, with administrative responsibilities, and we constantly have interruptions in our day that make it very difficult to maintain focus. Solution we can talk about later is basically trying to shield ourselves in a better way from distractions and interruptions that come to us.
Speaker 1:A third reason for procrastination is time management, and I hate that word. If you have been with me for any length of time, you probably heard me say this before. I hate that time management word and it's so 80s, 90s managerial kind of style leadership that we still see many times active in an academic medical center, and it just doesn't work very well. So, time management, I know what people mean they would like to manage their time better, but you already know everybody has 24 seven. There's nothing you can do to change about the time. It's going to be clicking and the clock is going to be ticking. Whether you like it or not, it's going to happen. However, how you manage that time, how you manage your priorities, that is definitely something I am a big proponent for. I teach and coach people on this all the time and there's a lot of things that you can do to gain control over your time and your day.
Speaker 1:And when people say or when they struggle with poor time management, it is really again coming often down to a lack of priorities and a lack of plan. In fact, I just heard the other day and a lesson and a course that I was taking I love listening to other people and that person was quoting a study and I was shocking. I don't remember the numbers, but the vast majority of people out there that means not just physician, anybody out there actually kind of go into work by the seat of their pants. They don't plan at all, they just kind of show up and whatever happens happens. Maybe they have some meeting schedules, but that is it. Now. That is a poor way to gain control over your day and no wonder people get pushed from one thing to another. So you have to be intentional with your day and I see many physicians still with a lack of planning and purpose and intentionality. So really important.
Speaker 1:But then even when people have to do list, for example, which I'm also not the biggest fan of then it happens often that people just shuffle that to-do list somewhere else and actually never follow it. Really it is only a small fraction and that number I do remember. Only 1% of people actually have a to-do list and check it frequently, which means you really continuously look at that list and say throughout your day have I done this, have I done this? Now you might not get all the things done on that list that day, but at least you have a benchmark that you're working towards and that way you make more progress than what you would have happen if you don't even have a list or a tracking system at all, Because, honestly, relying on your mind. Especially as you got older, it gets harder and especially as we're so busy, our mind can only hold so much information. So the mental to-do list is definitely not the way to go, all right. So that was number three. Basically, lack of time management or prioritization or plan.
Speaker 1:Number four another reason for procrastination is that people are very ambiguous in their task. Basically, it's not even clear what needs to be done, and that leads to confusion and that I see all the time as well. You really have to train yourself to be highly specific and clear on what a completed task look like and to chunk it up in such tiny steps that you can actually complete that specific tiny task, that baby step during the day. So that's why there's frameworks like smart goals or smarter goals, which I have reviewed in prior lessons before. But basically, your goal needs to be specific, it needs to be measurable, it needs to be actionable, it needs to be, in my mind, a little risky, stretching you a little bit. It should be time-bound, exciting and relevant. What does relevant mean Relevant? It should be relevant to your goals, but also timely, in a sense that it is current. You don't want to work on something that is relevant in three months from now and you're going to work on that today while you have some urgent things to take care of today, although that is important when it comes to, for example, grant writing, that is, it is relevant because it is important. That's just a side note. So task ambiguity is a big one, and that is also a big challenge for us box checkers, because when we have the sense that the task wasn't 100% completed because we still left the door open, because the task wasn't specific, then often what happens? The perfectionist in us steps in and said well, I didn't really complete that, so you have to be very clear Did I complete this at the end of the day or not? An external person should be able to look at that and say yes, inga, stephanie, paul, you completed this task. Good job.
Speaker 1:Number five procrastination can often come through task aversion. There are just unpleasant tasks in our list that are not very exciting, and so it is easy to postpone them. Now I would say a word of caution. There might be tasks on your list that you have to do that are not exciting. Then just get them out of the way. It's not going to get easier by waiting along, but you might also have a task aversion about something that is unpleasant and also completely unnecessary. We sometimes load up ourselves with these tasks that have nothing to do with our goals or even are required of us. We just came up with them for some reason, and that happens more than you think. You should delete those tasks and get rid of them all together. But again, task aversion the only way through it is just push through it and get it done and get it off your shelf, off your desk, off your mind so that it doesn't bother you anymore.
Speaker 1:Number six is lack of self-discipline or motivation. Now, that sounds kind of harsh when I say this, but hear me out. A lot of times, when we talk about these mental mindset, mental mastery things, it is a way of okay, I don't feel like it right now, but I have to find within me a self-discipline to get this task done anyway. And you might not feel even motivated before you get started. But you basically say right now, my head, my mind, I'm going to command it, what I'm supposed to do, and do it anyway, even if I don't feel like it, even if I don't feel like I'm in the right mindset. And by pushing yourself in that discipline you train your mind I go when I say I go. Funny side story I heard Tony Robbins say this once. Whether you're a fan or not, I think this is a good example of this.
Speaker 1:He likes to ice bath or pull a plunge or whatever it's called. He jumps into ice cold water every morning. Why does he do that? There's a number of reasons, and people believe it has benefits, and all that aside, but one of the reasons I heard him say once why he does that is it is very unpleasant. He does not want to do it, but he teaches his mind that when I say go, you execute. So when my mind says go, even my body doesn't want to do it, my emotion doesn't want to jump in that ice cold water, but my mind says I say go. Everything else has to submit to that. And if you hear me on Heal the Healers my other podcast that I just started, you will hear me talk about this. We have to submit our mind to higher authority. Actually, bible teaches about that. These are age-old principles that God has put in place in my mind. For you to have that awareness. You can submit your mind under greater authority and don't just swing with your emotions. That is really important. I'm not saying ignore your emotions. I'm saying there comes a place where you recognize your emotions, but then you say I'm going to submit my mind, what I'm doing right now, under a higher authority, and that's really important to not just fall apart under every emotional swing we might have.
Speaker 1:Okay, number seven fear of failure or success. This is the huge one, I would say. In many ways, procrastination, in one way or another, all these things come down to a fear-based response, and one of them could be fear of failure, not meeting expectations. Maybe the results won't be good, maybe people won't like it, what will people think about it? And therefore we never get started because we feel or we fear that there is a consequence of what if this doesn't work out? What if this manuscript doesn't get accepted? What if I write a draft and my mentor hates it and he marks it up with all red tracking changes. Right, that's not pleasant. So we avoid that altogether by not getting started.
Speaker 1:The other one can be actually fear of success. We might think about this. Less common, but it does happen that people get fearful of what if this works out. Let's say, my grant gets funded, that's awesome, hooray. But suddenly that means I really have to shift gear and I have to produce a lot of things that I said I'm going to do in that grant and sometimes people are afraid of that and they are afraid of well, what if I cannot deliver? Will there be retaliation from the NIH, for example? So I see that a lot too. So both of that can happen fear of failure or success.
Speaker 1:Number eight I hope you're still with me. I know these are a lot of things and you might want to go back and write them down later. Number eight is low self-esteem. This sounds also a little bit wow, I don't have a self-esteem issue. What I really mean by that is that we often have self-doubt and then we're avoiding something or we're just not feeling good enough, or you hear it thrown away in the fancy term of imposter syndrome these days, which sometimes, honestly, I think, we like to throw these terms around not really understanding number one, what they mean, or we almost lay on ourselves this persona that isn't actually really true to, maybe the definition or what it even is, or burden ourselves with this Imposter.
Speaker 1:You know, in the show it sometimes people throw that around and they feel like an imposter, right, they feel like they're showing up, they're trying to present something that they aren't truly. What they really often struggle with is actually not being an obvious fraud, because if you have the thought that you are a fraud or be found out, I can tell you are not a real imposter. What you're really worried about that you are not as good as you think you are, that you're not as good as other people perceive you are, and that you will be found out. Well, everybody struggles with that and so, again, that is something to just understand, that it comes often from an identity issue as well, and that's why I talk about leadership identity, for example. So self-doubt, not good enough. Well, let me tell you something simple for that, if you're given a task, yes, you might not be good enough yet, but you can grow into this opportunity. In fact, if we would be all good enough, well then what's the point? Right, a lot of the things we are doing is we are growing into these tasks, and so we are growing and improving, whether that's in our clinical skill or our research skill, or in our personal life and how we handle life around us.
Speaker 1:And the number nine is perfectionism. Perfectionism and procrastination goes often hand in hand, and I've yet to find an academic physician that hasn't struggled in one way or another with both of these. If they struggle with one, they usually struggle with the other one, and perfectionism is just setting unrealistic high standards. Often, perfectionism is something we put on ourselves and we kind of have this excuse we need to get it perfect. That is kind of a cop out to say because I'm trying to get it perfect, I never have to ship it and get that work product out. I never have to get that first draft out to my mentor or to the study section because it's not perfect, and I need it to be perfect before somebody else can see it, and that is a good reason to procrastinate. So they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, these give you some clues on what are the roots, but I think, in many levels, all of these, at one level or another, have a component of fear and a seed of fear in them Fear of not being good enough, fear of not making this happen, fear of what other people think, fear of judgment, fear of failure, etc. How to be? Overcome this, though? And before we talk about the solution, I thought I actually passed and say for a minute you know you've realized, okay, procrastination is a big deal. It shows up in many ways. There's a number of different reasons, but let's go back to why we actually want to handle this and why we want to find solutions for this. And here's the thing Procrastination is really John Maxwell says it in one of his books, so I'm going to read that quote to you because I think it's really good.
Speaker 1:Procrastination is the fertilizer that makes difficulties grow. Let me read that again Procrastination is the fertilizer that makes difficulties grow. It's really making things more difficult for us, even in the moment we think we are getting some relief from pressure. That's actually what we're trying to do. We're trying to take the pressure off, so we procrastinate, when in fact, in time, the pressure builds up and that fertilizes more difficulties as we go along and as time goes on that we are putting things off. And what's the result of that?
Speaker 1:We might miss opportunities that come around because we are not ready to seize them or, not prepared, we might miss out on things that we could have done. In extreme cases, I think that can lead to not getting promoted, especially if you are in an institution with an academic time clock or in that way they're not being able to maintain your position or your job. And these are where we see always things, and often that could have been prevented if people would have had the tools and skills to overcome procrastination and get a better handle on things and be trained. And okay, how am I going to deal with all that life throws at me? Because we all have these challenges, some more than others, but in fact, everybody deals with that at some level. So what are some solutions to procrastination? I've also listed nine here and they can go in a bit of a mirror image of what we talked about for the reasons.
Speaker 1:Number one set clear goals and prioritized tasks. That is really coming back to. You can have just have a laundry list of things to do. You should prioritize what is important and set clear goals for yourself in a weekly and monthly and a quarterly yearly fashion. That is something I do a lot with people through various trainings either ditch the list, boot camp we talk about this a lot. I have a vision retreat coming up in January that you can be part of. If you are on my email list, you will hear about this, so stay tuned until the end of the show. I will share with you how you get on my holiday promotion list to actually get a discount to join that vision retreat to help you exactly with that.
Speaker 1:Set clear goals, prioritize your task, cast a bigger vision for the next year and how that fits in into your big vision for the next five to 10 years, and then give you a very tangible goal that you will set for yourself in the next three months and you will walk away with clear directive of. This is what I need to do next week and that's how I function now. But I had to train myself how to do that and now I train other people how to do that. So it becomes a habit that a lifestyle that you function under. So set clear goals and prioritize tasks is really important.
Speaker 1:Number two break tasks into smaller, manageable steps. You've heard me say this probably many times. You really want to chunk it down this much that it's like almost too dumb not to do it, like it's almost like crazy not to do it because it is so easy. That is really helpful. Bucket down so much that I always say you baby step yourself to success. Baby step by, baby step that is slow and steady wins the race. If you keep on doing that you will make progress. There's no other way unless you give up Number three.
Speaker 1:Instead of time management tools, use time blocking techniques and promodora techniques, for example. So, once you have identified things that you want to do for this week, block your calendar during times when you are at peak performance for certain tasks. So if it's writing what is your best time to write Is it morning, is it in the afternoon and then block your time for these things and do a chunk of things that are sort of grouped together at the same time and promodora technique. You can look it up, but basically it's 25 minutes. You do something very focused, five minutes short break and then you do that for three cycles. So that's very helpful to get a lot of things done. Because one thing I know I think it's called Murphy's law, right it, you will use the time you allocate to yourself in a time container. So, for example, if you said I want to write this introduction paragraph for my paper, if you say I have two weeks for it, guess what? It will be two weeks until you actually get it done. Or if you say I'm going to allow myself 90 minutes to get that done with a time blocking promodora technique. Guess what? If you allow only that time container, chances are you will get a draft done in those 90 minutes easily. So we allow time to take over whatever we allocated. So I encourage you, be tight on your time allocation and see what results you're getting.
Speaker 1:Number four overcome perfectionism and set realistic goals. And that also really takes time. But you got to let go of that perfectionism and realize that perfectionism isn't getting it perfect. What you really want to have is get a first version out there of a manuscript of a paper, get a first version of a project idea sketched out on paper and then work from there. First version of a clinic note. It doesn't have to be perfect. It should be clear and concise and helpful to the reader that is going to pick up that clinic note. But it doesn't have to be totally perfect. So make it an excellent work product, but don't strive for perfection. That is an unrealistic standard that you can never meet.
Speaker 1:Number five manage distractions and create a focused workplace. So that's really important. A lot of times we interrupt it. We are distracted either by ourselves, by our work environment or our electronic devices around us, and also perhaps by other people. That was the pro and con of COVID, when we worked from home. Perhaps you now had space to work from home and were less distracted by colleagues or students, but perhaps you had little kids at home and that was really hard to manage. Using those distractions and interruptions is a key part to keep focus.
Speaker 1:Number six develop self-discipline and practice delayed gratification we talked about. You know you have to have that internal motivation and that self-discipline to help you get started. Sometimes we're putting things off because either our mind is bored, the task is unpleasant, we want to do something easier and what easily happens, especially when we're sort of in a funny emotional state, we easily grab our phone, we scroll on Twitter or X or social media because that gives us instant gratification, but we then delay what needs to be done. It needs to be a practice of self-discipline and you might have to get out of some bad habits that you inadvertently picked up and that you don't even notice how many times you pick up your phone. By the way, if you're curious about that, just look at your phone app and settings. That will tell you how many times you picked up your phone that day and you might be like whoa, holy gamoli. That is not good. I need to rein that in a little bit.
Speaker 1:Number seven seek accountability through colleagues and mentors. This can be actually really powerful. If you're like, hey, we're kind of all struggling with that in our division or department, maybe get together with another colleague that you really jive well with, or even as a group, and say why don't we hold each other accountable? Why don't we set right expectations to not interrupt each other when we are working intently? Why don't we have maybe co-working sessions together where we all sit in a group of a few people and say we're going to work on these manuscripts to hammer them out? That can be really powerful and then have some fun along the way and take a break.
Speaker 1:And trick your brain into action is another helpful tool. I personally discovered nobody ever taught me that and I think I did an episode I will link it in the show notes a couple episodes back where I told a story and tried to distill a framework out how you can kind of trick yourself into action, of doing something that you didn't feel like doing, kind of, when you have that brain block. These are a number of roots and causes for procrastination and I hope I did a good job to giving you just some ideas for solutions to help you overcome procrastination. As a bonus, I want to remind you number one set time containers. I mentioned that a little bit.
Speaker 1:Really, be very strict with understanding how much time you want to allocate for not just the big picture, but mostly also the little tasks per day, right, the baby step tasks that you can better control and manage and understand or estimate. People really struggle with how long will it take me to finish this manuscript? That's kind of hard to estimate sometimes. So start with estimating the baby step for the day, the tasks for the day, and put it in a time container. That's bonus tip number one. And also I want to remind you number two to really ask yourself hard is this something absolutely required of me or is this something that I need to do, that is absolutely important to my goals? And if it's not important and not necessary, then I ask you why are you doing it? If you keep on putting it off and maybe you have been putting it off for months well, maybe you should just get rid of it and there's no hard feeling, let's just let it go. Hopefully this served you.
Speaker 1:In the next episode we are going to talk about something that, since meeting season is coming up, at least for me I'm a hematologist the Ash Meeting American Society of Hematology is coming up and I want to take that time to remind people and share with some tips and tools how you can make the most out of a meeting, a conference you're going to, and the reason why is I know a lot of people struggle with that, especially have young kids you kind of have that regret and not taking time away from my family that I should be there. It's really hard for a lot of people. So I will share some thoughts over probably a series of podcasts, how I maneuvered that during different seasons of my life and how you can make the most out of a conference experience and make it a pleasant experience for you that you feel like you invested your time well. Okay, with that, stay tuned for the quick outro. I have a special announcement again for the holiday promotion. So stay tuned for that, because you really want to get in on that if you need additional help. Have a wonderful day. Talk to you soon.
Speaker 1:With the holidays just around the corner, I want to let you in on an inside scoop and on some special deals for holiday season this year, in 2023. I know that most gurus tell us, coaches and people don't want holiday promotions because your value isn't any less during the holidays, and that is true. Your value doesn't go down, or how I help people doesn't decrease in quality, just because it's Christmas. But I love giving gifts and I love celebrating the holiday season and I love you. So for that reason, I decided to run a bunch of special holiday promotions and there will be surprises over Thanksgiving, black Friday, christmas, etc.
Speaker 1:So if you want in on any of the details, you have to get on my email list so you actually hear about them. To do that, please go to inga-hoffmancom forward slash holidays 2023 to sign up. Again. That is inga-hoffmancom forward slash holidays 2023. I see you there and have a blessed holiday season. Thank you so much for listening to the Academic Revolution podcast today. If you have gotten value from today's episode, I would love for you to share it with your friends and colleagues and help create a movement that changes the future of academic medicine forever. Also, don't forget to follow me on Facebook, instagram or LinkedIn and visit inga-hoffmancom for more information on how to work with me. Those are in the show notes. Until then, be well and see you on the next episode of the Academic Revolution podcast.